Jack in the Box Breakfast Sausage -- and ratings of fast food business models

[Tim May]

Since I just praised the Big Hamburger at Carl's Jr. and compared it
favorably to the Jack in the Box basic hamburger (which I think is
named the Jumbo Jack, but I could be mistaken), I feel obligated to
mention the new "served all day" breakfast sandwiches at JiTB.

On a trip to JiTB a few weeks ago, I ordered a basic hamburger and also
a breakfast sausage (and a water, as I usually do). I didn't care that
it was 3 pm.

The breakfast sausage sandwich (99 cents) was excellent. Perfectly
cooked, moist, yadda yadda yadda. The burger was good, too.

Such a deal for $1.98 plus tax!

I'm impressed by the business model of Jack in the Box. A small,
crowded kitchen, usually fully visible from the ordering counter. And
usually a fairly small seating area. Helps control costs.

By comparison, the Wendy's place nearest me has a kitchen that is
completely hidden from view, a seating area with probably 30 tables (at
least 5 rows by 6 columns). Too big, too few customers, non-memorable
food, even for fast food.

The Jack in the Boxes I know of have more customers than the Wendy's
stores do. (For reference: JiTB in Watsonville, 2 of them, in Santa
Cruz, 1 of them. Wendy's in Watsonville, 1 of them.)

(I so seldom go into McDonald's or BK that I won't quote crowdedness
numbers. And about In-N-Out, well, I have written about these. They are
nearly always crowded and have a truly great business model.
Regrettably, they have not yet arrived within 25 miles of where I
live.)

My current tally of business models:

Great Business Models:

-- In-N-Out, for burgers--simple menu, delicous, slightly expensive,
but worth it (privately held, so no stock investment...I wonder why?)

-- Subway, for sandwiches--extremely inexpensive, healthful, for the
$2.99 deals (privately held, so no stock investment...I wonder why?)

Good Business Models:

-- Jack in the Box, burgers--good for basics, tacos are good, breakfast
menu served all day is a stroke of genius (ObMcDonald's customer: "What
do you mean you stopped serving breakfast 10 minutes ago!?") The 3
JiTBs in my area have a lot of traffic.

-- Carl's Jr, for the basics like Big Hamburgers, not so great for the
Six Dollar Burgers and Green Burrito (or whatever) Mexican menu

-- KFC -- I have to say, the KFCs near me seem to be thriving. Probably
a good move that they are bringing back the mention of "Kentucky Fried
Chicken," as people are tired of the political correctness--they _know_
they are eating fried chicken and that is finger-licking delicious
(TM), so why try to hide this fact?

Declining or Bad Business Models

-- Quizno's, for overpriced, foo-foo, "toasted" sandwiches (Togo's is
also likely declining, but it's sort of a regional brand, so I won't
get into it in detail....see comments over the years by me on Togo's)

-- Wendy's...the square burgers thing is not very enticing...stores are
mostly empty

-- McDonald's -- every single one I see that is within shouting
distance of an In-N-Out is basically deserted...even ones I see that
are isolated often have empty parking lots...if I were to be an
investor in fast food places, I'd sell this one short.

-- Burger King -- see McDonald's



Too Soon to Tell Business Models

-- Taco Bell -- most have a lot of in-n-out traffic, no pun intended,
and they fill a niche


Not Rated Business Models

-- Sonic (none near me in past 28 years), Chick-Fil-A (huh?), El Pollo
Loco (none near me currently), and any of the Mexican chains like
Chipotle or Baja Fresh

-- no pizza places are rated

So there it is. In-N-Out, Jack in the Box, and Carl's Jr. offer good
value for the money, especially if "numbered meals" are avoided. Except
for In-N-Out, where I usually splurge and order the Double-Double,
fries, and soda.


--Tim May

[Owen Gilmore]

Post by Tim May
-- In-N-Out, for burgers--simple menu, delicous, slightly expensive,
but worth it (privately held, so no stock investment...I wonder why?)
-- Subway, for sandwiches--extremely inexpensive, healthful, for the
$2.99 deals (privately held, so no stock investment...I wonder why?)
-- Jack in the Box, burgers--good for basics, tacos are good, breakfast
menu served all day is a stroke of genius (ObMcDonald's customer: "What
do you mean you stopped serving breakfast 10 minutes ago!?") The 3
JiTBs in my area have a lot of traffic.
-- Carl's Jr, for the basics like Big Hamburgers, not so great for the
Six Dollar Burgers and Green Burrito (or whatever) Mexican menu
-- KFC -- I have to say, the KFCs near me seem to be thriving. Probably
a good move that they are bringing back the mention of "Kentucky Fried
Chicken," as people are tired of the political correctness--they _know_
they are eating fried chicken and that is finger-licking delicious
(TM), so why try to hide this fact?
Declining or Bad Business Models
-- Quizno's, for overpriced, foo-foo, "toasted" sandwiches (Togo's is
also likely declining, but it's sort of a regional brand, so I won't
get into it in detail....see comments over the years by me on Togo's)
-- Wendy's...the square burgers thing is not very enticing...stores are
mostly empty
-- McDonald's -- every single one I see that is within shouting
distance of an In-N-Out is basically deserted...even ones I see that
are isolated often have empty parking lots...if I were to be an
investor in fast food places, I'd sell this one short.
-- Burger King -- see McDonald's
Too Soon to Tell Business Models
-- Taco Bell -- most have a lot of in-n-out traffic, no pun intended,
and they fill a niche
Not Rated Business Models
-- Sonic (none near me in past 28 years), Chick-Fil-A (huh?), El Pollo
Loco (none near me currently), and any of the Mexican chains like
Chipotle or Baja Fresh
-- no pizza places are rated
So there it is. In-N-Out, Jack in the Box, and Carl's Jr. offer good
value for the money, especially if "numbered meals" are avoided. Except
for In-N-Out, where I usually splurge and order the Double-Double,
fries, and soda.

I'd agree, except I'd put both Karl's Jr. and KFC in "declining".
Boring burgers, more expensive than competitors, late to the value
menu scene, in the case of Karl's. KFC, just plain inferior in every
way - greasy, sloppy, just plain gross. Yes, I know fried chicken is
intrinsically greasy but it's supposed to be crispy (at least the
skin), hot and juicy. Not lukewarm and dripping in grease. If I must
have take-out fried chicken, I''ll go to Popeyes (talk about crowded,
when they first opened in the bay area, lines out the door).

The Wendy's/JITB models are a good comparison, and instructive.
Wendys: relies on "goodwill" left over from the days of Dave Thomas,
gimmicks like the square burgers, has mostly sullen employees. JITB:
compact menu/open kitchen (as you mention), very early on the value
menu scene, mostly friendly employees. JITB had to re-invent itself
after the e-coli death of one of its customers in the early 90's, a 4-
year old boy I think. Even Eric Schlosser of "Fast Food Nation" fame
gives the chain credit for its quality control.

I'd like to find the "next McDonald's" (not as it exists now, but as
an investment as it was in the 60s-70s). It seems like restaurants
that "go public" have had the tendency to overexpand and follow the
latest trend (Quizno's, Boston Chicken), then they decline. Maybe the
private owners of Subway and In N Out want to keep a tight lid on
their operations and not have to please Wall Street.

I haven't tried any new fast food lately but I'll let y'all know if I
do!

Owen

obJerry: craving the taco's at JITB

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Tim May
I'm impressed by the business model of Jack in the Box. A small,
crowded kitchen, usually fully visible from the ordering counter.
And usually a fairly small seating area. Helps control costs.

I'm not sure I understand why that would be so. Considering the
design of JItB and other fast-food-restaurant dining areas (hard,
easy-to-wipe surfaces, most litter on trays), I don't see that
cleaning a large seating area would be appreciably more difficult
or time-consuming for a non-retarded employee than cleaning a smaller
one would be.

Plus, the Jacks In the Box with the small seating areas are usually
in the older, cube-shaped restaurants which date from the late Six-
ties and early Seventies. They were sized for the traffic levels of
that era. So it's probably not true that the fairly small seating
areas are part of their current business model.

I've been in some of their newer restaurants that had large seating
areas, e.g., the one on Rengstorff near Middlefield in Mountain View
that has gone through a couple of iterations as a burrito place. So
maybe the newer ones are different.

Post by Tim May
By comparison, the Wendy's place nearest me has a kitchen that is
completely hidden from view, a seating area with probably 30 tables
(at least 5 rows by 6 columns). Too big, too few customers, non-
memorable food, even for fast food.

Depends on the location. I was at the one on Mathilda at Maude in
Sunnyvale last week at the high point of the lunch rush, and most
of the tables were filled. On the other hand, the one I used to
frequent on Watt Avenue in North Highlands when I was stationed at
CGAS Sacramento was often half-empty even at noon.

Post by Tim May
-- In-N-Out, for burgers--simple menu, delicous, slightly expensive,
but worth it (privately held, so no stock investment...I wonder why?)

That's a very good question.

Post by Tim May
-- Subway, for sandwiches--extremely inexpensive, healthful, for the
$2.99 deals (privately held, so no stock investment...I wonder why?)

I speculate that their "assembly line" serving model and the high
throughput (and concomitant short customer waits) it generates are
good for business and therefore profits.

The downside, at least from some customers' points of view, is a fast-
moving, high-pressure ordering model where one really has to work to
stay ahead of the game. Especially during the lunch rush, when the
employees are amped up and surfing the crest of an adrenaline wave.
Theirs is a fairly complicated menu with a lot of options and visual
overload.

Post by Tim May
-- Jack in the Box, burgers--good for basics, tacos are good, breakfast
menu served all day is a stroke of genius (ObMcDonald's customer: "What
do you mean you stopped serving breakfast 10 minutes ago!?")

I suspect that has something to do with the fact that unlike McDonald's,
JItB doesn't offer pancakes. It doesn't matter if the ingredients for
a Breakfast Jack (I enjoyed one of those before getting out of bed this
morning, in fact) are cooked in hamburger grease or not -- but it would
make pancakes taste nasty.

Post by Tim May
-- Carl's Jr, for the basics like Big Hamburgers, not so great for
the Six Dollar Burgers and Green Burrito (or whatever) Mexican menu

I'm a fan of the Six Dollar Burger, both for its value and its taste.
Never heard of the other stuff until now. I think their menu is too
complicated, heading in the direction of McDonalds' -- that is to say,
trying to be too many things to too many people. They should stick to
their core competency, which is heartier-than-usual, semi-premium
hamburgers and the traditional sides: fries and onion rings.

Post by Tim May
-- KFC -- I have to say, the KFCs near me seem to be thriving.

I went to a KFC resently for the first time in several years, and
was extremely put off by the small sizes of their chicken pieces.
KFC has evidently commissioned the breeding of runty, undersized
chickens in order to maximize their profits. It was like eating
fried canaries and parakeets. They'll retain a certain percentage
of their clientele who prefer their seasonings, but I can't help
wondering how much business they're destined to lose from the more
value-conscious segment of their customer base.

Some subset of KFCs are colocated with Taco Bells now. I'm curious
how this affects the bottom lines of both companies.

Post by Tim May
Declining or Bad Business Models
-- Quizno's, for overpriced, foo-foo, "toasted" sandwiches (Togo's is
also likely declining, but it's sort of a regional brand, so I won't
get into it in detail....see comments over the years by me on Togo's)

Again, I think it's a matter of location. The two Quizno's near my
office (Rivermark Center in Santa Clara and on North First Street near
Tasman in San Jose) are both packed at lunchtime, with lines out the
door. The new one in Scotts Valley, probably "not so much," as people
like to say nowadays.

Post by Tim May
-- Wendy's...the square burgers thing is not very enticing...stores
are mostly empty

Not the one I wass at last week. I have to say, though, that their
burgers weren't nearly as good as I'd remembered them. I've crossed
Wendy's off my list.

Post by Tim May
-- McDonald's -- every single one I see that is within shouting
distance of an In-N-Out is basically deserted...even ones I see
that are isolated often have empty parking lots...if I were to be
an investor in fast food places, I'd sell this one short.

Depends on the location and the clientele. The one on Shoreline
in Mountain View, near Costco, has plenty of customers, as does the
one at McCarthy Ranch in Milpitas. Both are close to in-N-Outs.

Post by Tim May
Not Rated Business Models
-- Sonic (none near me in past 28 years), Chick-Fil-A (huh?), El Pollo
Loco (none near me currently), and any of the Mexican chains like
Chipotle or Baja Fresh

I believe Sonic is a Southern chain. If they have any restaurants in
California, or at least Northern California, I've not heard about it.

I'd say that fact that Chick-Fil-A ("Praise the Lowered!") and El Pollo
Loco haven't expanded significantly speaks for itself. It seems that
the health craze notwithstanding, chicken doesn't work that well as a
standalone specialty; it has to be paired with hamburgers.



Geoff

--
"And if you wish to avoid crushing social embarrassment, it's
red wine with dwarf, white with fetus." -- Semolina Pilchard

[David Arnstein]

Post by Geoff Miller
Some subset of KFCs are colocated with Taco Bells now. I'm curious
how this affects the bottom lines of both companies.

They are the same company. From
http://www.yum.com/franchising/default.asp:

Yum! Brands Inc., based in Louisville, Ky., is the world's
largest restaurant company in terms of system restaurants with
more than 35,000 restaurants in more than 110 countries and
territories. Four of the company's restaurant brands KFC, Pizza
Hut, Taco Bell and Long John Silver's are the global leaders of
the chicken, pizza, Mexican-style food and quick-service seafood
categories respectively. A&W Restaurants is the longest running
quick-service franchise chain in America.

[Tim May]

Post by David Arnstein

Post by Geoff Miller
Some subset of KFCs are colocated with Taco Bells now. I'm curious
how this affects the bottom lines of both companies.

They are the same company. From
Yum! Brands Inc., based in Louisville, Ky., is the world's
largest restaurant company in terms of system restaurants with

This has been so for half of the past decade. Or longer. Anyone who
does not know about the various Yum brands should not be responded to
seriously.

--Tim May

[Geoff Miller]

Tim May <***@removethis.got.net> writes:

[Taco Bell _cum_ KFC]

Post by Tim May
This has been so for half of the past decade. Or longer.

I didn't say it was news, numbnuts. I said it was so.

In any case, while KFC and Taco Bell may be owned by the
same holding company, they still have their own bottom
lines -- just as Pontiac and Chevrolet do, despite their
both being GM brands. That in no way conflicts with
their profits contributing to GM's bottom line.

Post by Tim May
Anyone who does not know about the various Yum brands
should not be responded to seriously.

Oh, please. The lengths to which you'll go to attack anything
I say, on any subject, never ceases to amaze me. If I were a
liberal, I'd say you must really feel threatened. Dumb shit...

(Oh, and thanks for the .sig quote.)



Geoff

--
"Not only did Barack deny knowing that his scribe was
an unpatriotic, imbalanced bigot, but he also said he
didn't even know Wright was black until last Monday."
-- Doug Giles

[John Haskey]

Post by Geoff Miller
I believe Sonic is a Southern chain. If they have any restaurants in
California, or at least Northern California, I've not heard about it.

Last I checked there was a Sonic in Tracy, CA. I think that was the closest
one to Ben Lomond.

---john.